A conversation with Troy Brooks.

I tried a new tactic with Troy, the frequent Internet 'evangelist'. He's rabidly anti-Calvinistic, so much so that even though he's been told not to return, not to connect to the network etc., he continues to enter Dr. James White's chat channel. 

So I finally got some answers from him... sort of. But it was a fruitful discussion. (Troy was using the nickname "SallyMae" so as to avoid detection.)


Micah: well, why people choose God (over death)  what is different about those who choose God?

Troy: Nothing is different than their choice.

Micah: well, something must differ between the person who comes to faith and the one who doesn't?

Troy: Their choice is different.   Because they are sovereign beings and choose as they wish. Molinism can help you understand this better.

Micah: From Molina, the Roman Catholic?

Troy: But the basic idea of Molinism is true. It says that God saves the most and damns the least.

In all possible world ensembles, there is not a situation in which you would be saved in another world if it were to exist and not saved in this one. Because God provides sufficient grace to all, but your god doesn't which shows you worship the evil spirit.

Troy: He chose the world ensemble to save the most and damn the least.

Micah: If God chose the world... do we still have a free will to choose otherwise?

Troy got banned again at this point. But Troy's basic premise is flawed in multiple places. Firstly he doesn't seem to understand that in Arminianism "choosing" is how someone comes to Christ, not why.  When I ask the Arminian, "Why do you believe whereas so many others do not", unless cave into Pelagianism (ie: "because I am better, stronger, more spiritual") they will not have any kind of answer.

Troy has no answer, so he keeps answering why with a how.  He said he would blog on it, so I'll have to see what he comes up with.

The Biblical answer is of course that we choose God because He first chose us. Christ says that He came to "seek and save the lost", He doesn't seek and try to save the lost. He actually saves them. Apart from God's mercy and grace all of those who enter heaven would be lost. We don't deserve grace, which is the Arminian's first presupposition, we deserve justice, by which we all fall short.

Secondly, while I'm not convinced that Troy understands or represents Molinism properly, his claim is easily defeated by Isaiah 46.

Here's the premise: "God saves the most and damns the least. In all possible world ensembles, there is not a situation in which you would be saved in another world if it were to exist and not saved in this one." In other words, God chose this world out of all possible worlds because in this one the most people would freely choose Him.

Apart from the obvious objections of slaves to sin freely choosing to do good... how does this present an even slightly Biblical picture of God?  Also, how does this answer Troy's main objection to Calvinism, which is that man must have free will? What free will is there in this concept? How much more freer is the will of those living in a world God chose where the most people would choose Him? We're still tied to a deterministic scheme, only this time some sort of strange fate is the reason we're saved... Also it seems quite like a snowglobe scenario, God kept shaking the globe until enough of the snow fell where he wanted it.  Is that the Biblical God?

Here's God speaking about himself:

Isa 46:9-11 (ESV)
⁹remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
   I am God, and there is none like me,
¹⁰ declaring the end from the beginning
   and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
   and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
¹¹ calling a bird of prey from the east,
   the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
   I have purposed, and I will do it.

Can Troy's God truly say that He's declared the end from the beginning and if God desires to save everyone, how can He truly say of himself,  "I will accomplish all my purpose... I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it"?