The woman who wonderfully blogged about her 4 year old daughter's need for a Savior got herself on the liberal and atheist blog network's hit list. (I can understand her plight being the target of the gay/lesbian alliance recently.)
Several things to note. Notice the brand of tolerance practiced by the non-Christians (and the liberal "christians") responding to her. As I stated in the comments of my blog post about the Lesbian woman who got parental rights of a child she had no blood relationship with, the brand of so-called tolerance practiced by those who so loudly demand tolerance leaves much to be desired. Also note the language used by these people. They chastise her for supposedly being unkind and unloving to her daughter and yet look at how they treat this woman they don't even know. Such sterling examples of tolerance.
This blogger, who rightfully understands the depth of man's depravity and the desperate need for all of us to have a savior. Has been called filthy names, accused of abusing her child and told she's a horrible mother... why? Because she dared to tell her child that she was a wretched sinner in desperate need of a Savior.
Many of these commentators, all so brave behind a keyboard, decry her denial of the child's self-esteem... yet what role does such a concept play in an naturalistic, atheistic world view?! To quote ENielsen, "Don't let anyone tell you that you aren't important, you ARE valuable--because you have a place in the food chain."
Let's be up front folks, Biblical Christianity teaches that all have sinned, including little four-year-old girls and need a Savior from the wrath of God. Yes, I realize in this sin-saturated, pervert-praising, God-hating world such ideas a sin, wrath and needing a Savior are antithetical to the majority world-view, however this is what we who follow orthodox Christianity believe and surely the truly "tolerant" would post their responses on their own blogs rather than lambasting this mother.
Of course, the tolerance-police aren't interested in true tolerance, they want the world their way or it's off-to-the reeducation camp with you!
Praise God that there are parents still intent upon raising their children in a truly Christian world-view. Pray for this woman, and support her. Pray also for her ignorant and vile attackers who, from the anonymity of a keyboard are so full of bravado and anger.
A duplication of a comment I left to you on The Virtuous Woman blog. I think it may be of relevance here.
ReplyDeleteLockheed-
"There is "no good thing" dwelling within us, even little children, that God sees and saves us based upon"
Read that comment slowly, and you will understand why many commenters on this thread think that what Jean is teaching her child is wrong. Consider also that several of the commenters are Christian, which suggests that the issue is not as clear-cut as you would perhaps like it to be.
"This blog post is a beautiful example of how to teach humility to a child"
There is a difference between teaching humility and crushing self-esteem, and it seems, from her own words, that Jean may be skirting very close to the line. I would also question how well a child of 4 can be expected to understand the issues involved, when it is clear from this thread that they provoke bitter dissent among adults, Christians included.
"What purpose does "self-esteem" serve in a naturalistic world view anyway? According to most of these folks we're just worm food and the effects of random chance mutation. Why do they care about the offspring of that?"
I must assume that you were angry when you wrote the above words, since I am sure you are aware that they are untrue. Perhaps it is the case that your passion got the best of you, which is perfectly understandable.
Evolution is not "random chance mutation", and those that accept the reality of evolution do not regard everyone as "worm food". They do not love their friends and family any less. I am sure you know people who accept evolution: would you genuinely say that they do not have self-esteem, or do not encourage it in their children?
"This is the kind of tolerance these people want, where Christians are attacked and atheism reigns unchecked".
Atheism is merely an absence of belief in God, gods and the supernatural. It has no creed or tenets, therefore it cannot "rule" anything.
tolerance? you want TOLERANCE?
ReplyDeletesociety as a whole is finally moving towards a phase where we do NOT tolerate abuse of the vulnerable, no matter the excuse the abusers use. once the stock standard excuse was ' the devil made me do it'. now it's 'god made me do it' and the greater majority of people must TOLERATE this?
NO. we will NOT tolerate this. we will not look the other way when delusional people do their utmost to create the serial killers of the future because they personally believe more in their own ideas than in what society and law decrees.
this isn't a religious matter at all, it's a simple case of emotional abuse where god is being used as the weapon. her christianity is utterly irrelevant and it is not what caused her to be criticised.
I understand why those who left the rude comments did so. Their worldview is antithetical to ours and displays the exact kind of depravity we expect from unbelieving God-haters, the kind that Scripture tells us we all express prior to His work in our lives. That kind of thinking is pervasive in our society, as evidenced by the self-proclaimed "christians" who posted in opposition to the post as well. The issue IS in fact clear cut, for us who believe the Bible to be God's Word. I have no intention of arguing that issue with anyone here, at this time, but suffice it to say that this is worldview issue.
ReplyDeleteWe Christians do not believe that we are saved by virtue of anything in us, or done by us, but rather by the sovereign grace of the Almighty God who saves us based on His purpose and pleasure. All of us are in the same boat, our faith states that "all have sinned" and that none of us deserves saving, we're not good enough to earn it nor obtain it, but Christ, the God-man who condescended to become man and take our place under God's wrath was. And it is by His work, and His doing that we are anything other than God-hating perverts shaking our fists at Him any chance we can.
When I read some of these comments I'm reminded of the debate between Greg Bahnsen and the atheist Gordon Stein. Toward the end of the debate Stein expresses his outrage at God, claiming that God killed his mother... an astounding admission, and its something we Christians note. Atheists critique Christianity from a position that must accept principles of a theistic worldview in order to do so.
Self-Esteem, therefore, in our worldview, is the opposite of the love and devotion demanded by the Sovereign of the universe. We recognize that what is in us is tainted being fully worthless in a salvific way. Even our best desires, apart from Christ, are tainted with self-interest, guile and wickedness.
But what is wicked in a naturalistic worldview? How can one who sees humans as nothing more than complex organizations of atoms, truly a cosmic mistake, given the way we are told we're "destroying the planet" and the like. On what basis can anyone with such a worldview critique anyone's view of morality, given the fact that morality itself demands some concept of right and wrong, and in such a worldview there is only the law of tooth and claw. Self-esteem therefore must only be a mechanism for evolution to carry on one genetic line or another, not something of true value apart from that.
We, as Christians give the 4 year old child much more respect knowing that they are in fact, created in the image of God. As image-bearers of God, they are capable of being rescued from the body of death which enslaves them to their base desires of sin and selfishness to serve the Living God of Scripture. We likewise believe that the unborn are similarly bearers of God's image and worth the life which is refused to them millions of times a year by many who choose to kill them simply on the basis of convenience. We expect our children to acknowledge their sinfulness in light of a righteous judge Who's Law transcends the ever-changing opinions and feelings of the masses, and when they do they realize that their goodness and potential lies not within them but in the risen Savior. This is possible since we know that ability (to acknowledge sinfulness and the need for righteousness) lies not within the individual, but is solely a gift of God. The 4 year old then can have the same understanding of their need for a Savior as an adult and be equally elated by the knowledge of their freedom from sin and the wrath of God.
We promote, therefore, Christ-esteem as opposed to self-esteem. We find our worth not in our measly attempts at doing good, but in the finished work of Christ who, in our stead, paid for our misdeeds and rescues us from our depravity to truly help, truly love and truly serve both God and neighbor.
Your response to my comment about naturalistic worldview and the need for self-esteem said nothing, by the way. You made no case for it, other than to accuse me of emotionalism. It is true that I am angry. I am angry because many anonymous individuals found time to castigate a mother for her historically-biblical care of her child based on nothing more than a single blogpost interpreted through their clouded worldview. I know how that feels, having been the target of such myself. I doubt most of them actually read thoroughly what she posted, given their comments and the kinds of comments I've received over time.
When you speak of evolution are you talking about Darwinian evolution, Gould's punctuated equilibrium, modern neo-Darwinian philosophy or what? The basic model for evolution is that random mutation, over time, provides the basis for natural selection.
I realize that most who believe in the myth called evolution don't regard others as worm food, but the fact of the matter is that they have no logical basis for doing so, unless you're willing to admit some commitment to a theistic or semi-theistic worldview.
We're worm-food, friend, we live for 80 or so years, attempt to procreate and then most of us are lost due to the passage of time and the digestive systems of critters smaller than us. Regardless of how much you might esteem yourself, the same is as true of you as it is for me. Self-esteem therefore has not saved a single person from the fate that awaits us all.
We Christians however know that this is not all there is, and we know from Scripture that those who oppose us do to. They may claim otherwise and have so deadened the clamoring of their consciences so as to ignore its warning, but we all know, a day is coming in which the books will be balanced. And all of us "will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead."
The only reason we Christians look to that day with anticipation is not because we're better than the others, or because we have more esteem than the others, but because, for nothing inherent in ourselves, God chose to act in our lives. It is therefore the height of humility to teach a child that their esteem in this life is not based on how good the can act or how high they can jump, but upon the risen Savior, the God-man, Jesus the Christ who lived a perfect life in their place and died a substitutionary death in their place to save them from the wrath of God due each of us.
Finally, You may claim atheism cannot "rule" anything, but the past hundred years speak volumes to the foolishness of your statement. The creeds and tenets of atheism are evident in the words of most atheists who, when challenged, revert to language that would make the most hardened blush, and most of it reserved for the God they claim not to believe in.
Thanks for your post.
lifelike001 - thank you for clearly expressing the mindset of the so-called "tolerant" who demand we teach our children about gay sex, abortion and to hate the God of the Bible.
ReplyDeleteI am eternally grateful that my parents taught me that I was a sinner!!!!! I will leave this world someday with a Savior! I'd sure hate going out into eternity with nothing but good self esteem??
ReplyDeleteConsider all the believers, Spurgeon, Luther, Calvin, the founders of Princeton and Yale, Eric Liddell and others who knew that their self-worth lay not in anything within them but solely in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteSolus Christus!
Lockheed
ReplyDeleteI too left a comment on that site for a reason, I wanted to point out what I thought was wrong with the situation as I saw it. I never meant to sound hateful, I was just amazed that people want to think this way. I don't think anybody should be forced in such a way to feel so worthless.
I have lived my whole life without religion and yet have never seen fit to treat anybody in the manner that I read from Jean's post.
I was attacking the ideas, not the person - I was attacking the religious reasons that has somehow made it justifiable for her 4 year old daughter to be treated in such a way.
Simply put, I cannot understand the justification for it - kids are kids for goodness sake, why is it up to the parents to force religion upon them so harshly?
Would it not be more prudent to teach that child about all religions and what they teach so she can make her mind up when she is old enough to understand? Choosing a religion is a life changing experience as I am sure you could tell me so therefore it is a highly important one.
Its like telling a kid from day one when he/she has learned to understand you "You will be a lawyer, that is the only profession you are going to do, if you don't become a lawyer you will be sent to a life of eternal punishment!" If repeated as stridently as Jean tells her child she is wretched do you not think this will cause problems later on in life when she encounters other people who don't share these views?
There are other professions out there, there is a lot to choose in life that fits in with your goals - I would have thought parenthood was about preparing their children for the real world. A career is an important decision is it not? So why should religion be any different?
When Jean's daughter meets other kids who don't think like she has been forced to, don't you think she might just feel somewhat inferior and isolated?
I do not understand why anyone would want to feel so bad about themselves or make others do the same.
If I come across as some concern troll apologies now, I simply wanted to make a point.
All the best
Philip
I noticed that many of these atheists declared that there is no evil, that evil is a human construct, and then have proceeded to describe the actions of Jean as "evil" and "child abuse." From what worldview are they able to determine what is abusive and what is not? How can they determine right and wrong? What is the basis for their view here?
ReplyDeleteI was just amazed that people want to think this way. I don't think anybody should be forced in such a way to feel so worthless.
ReplyDeleteThat's just it, no one is worthless, rather their value comes not from their selfish desires, needs or wants, but from the infinite God who created them. So the child's self-worth does not depend on whether or not they have the best shoes, jeans or hairstyle, but rather that they're a child of God and have been reconciled to Him through His Son Jesus Christ.
Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
This is where the Christian finds their worth, their value. They are a precious treasure to God and it doesn't matter how successful, how beautiful or how wealthy they are.
I was attacking the ideas, not the person - I was attacking the religious reasons that has somehow made it justifiable for her 4 year old daughter to be treated in such a way.
What way? To be told that they're a wretched sinner and are in need of a Savior? We would consider telling them the opposite to be a lie and much more hurtful since it will lead to their damnation. I realize that the words "wretched sinner" and the like smack of arrogance and accost the ears of the modern 'free thinkers' who are all about some naturalistic self-worth, ultimately just another supposed evolutionary mechanism designed to help us propagate the species, but for Christians, for thousands of years, it is the God-honest truth.
If repeated as stridently as Jean tells her child she is wretched do you not think this will cause problems later on in life when she encounters other people who don't share these views?
No, just the opposite. Because one is a wretched sinner doesn't make that the end of the story. For the wretched sinner can find worth, value, trust and love in the risen Savior, Jesus Christ, who took God's wrath in their place. Then, when this person, such as I or others who were raised in such a home, encounter those who, disillusioned, depressed and in despair of the self-help nonsense age we live in, we can point them to the true value of a life lived in service of the Lord and not for oneself.
Yep, we're talking about selfless love and care of others first. Just as Christ came to earth, humbled himself as a man and chose to die a humiliating death on a Roman torture device, we are to be as selfless for others.
Php 2:4-8 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, ho, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For us, the wretched-sinner part of the equation is only part of the issue.
Eph 2:1-7 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
It is therefore by grace we are saved, it is not of ourselves as a result of anything we are, or can do. But because God had mercy on us and graciously brought us to life again in Christ.
I do not understand why anyone would want to feel so bad about themselves or make others do the same.
Because we believe that telling people that they're good enough, sufficient enough, successful enough points them to themselves as their own Savior, and when we humans, in the darkness of night alone in our beds, think back on the truly evil things that we do in our hearts as well as in our actions we must accept that we are truly not good enough, successful enough, or sufficient enough to stand before a perfect, holy God of whom a single transgression is of the utmost severity. If we have any hope therefore in this life, or the next, it must be found outside of ourselves in the Gospel which is God condescending to man to lift him up even though he deserves hell.
Hello Lockheed
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for allowing my post and also for your response, I hope its ok I will ask a few more questions?
Apologies now for the lengthy post! :)
I think you encapsulated everything in this sentence:
"To be told that they're a wretched sinner and are in need of a Saviour? We would consider telling them the opposite to be a lie and much more hurtful since it will lead to their damnation."
Why do you have to be damned?
Why do you need a saviour?
What possible heinous and disgusting crime did you commit, before you were even born it seems, that justifies such persecution and self loathing?
I honestly don't think what you say smacks of arrogance at all neither do I think you stupid - in all honesty it really shocks me that anyone would willing WANT to live life like that.
Finding your worth and value under the threat of eternal damnation from an invisible presence of which the evidence for its not existing vastly outweighs the evidence for its actually existing is something I can never understand or would ever subject myself or others to. My childhood was never like this, I admit I am one of the more fortunate people for having such loving family and friends but if anyone treated me like this I would almost certainly have left them behind long ago.
This may sound shocking and offensive, apologies if it is, but being so scared of such an authority figure who tells you that you are so wretched and worthless at the same time demanding your worship and love, no matter what he/she inflicts upon you, sounds so much like some of the dictatorships I have studied in History classes.
This is the reason I sound so shocked and aghast - I read the Bible and I find things like Deuteronomy 28 to echo and mirror the horrific practices of madmen like Stalin.
"Verse 20 - The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him!"
That looks positively dreadful - doesn't it? The LORD THY GOD will do this to you if you don't what he demands. If you don't follow all his laws and the laws of Jesus (see below quote) you will pay for it as suggested above.
Matthew 5 17-18
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
There are so many passages to choose from, here are just few more off the top of my head
Luke 14 26-27
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 15:4-7
For God said, 'Honour your father and mother and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
Matthew 10, 34-36
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.
You have quoted the Bible to me with the purpose of trying to teach me something, again, I find it difficult to accept anything it says because I don't trust its origins or content.
I studied History and English at university and after reading the Bible a few times I have seen too many inaccuracies and contradictions for me to trust its authenticity.
Even saying that the content on its own shows truly barbaric and violent practices that I would not dare inflict upon others let alone condone the atrocities committed in its name.
Should Jean kill her daughter if she ever speaks back to her? Jesus and God both demand it according to the Bible so is it right to trust its wisdom?
I completely and utterly doubt she would ever wish harm to come to her daughter or anyone else but I was hoping to illustrate my point by using the writings of the Bible as an example.
I hope that explains things better and apologies again for the lengthy post!
I look forward to hearing from you
All the best
Philip
Yes, I admit there are some wise things said in the Bible but if it had been the work of a deity that is claimed to have inspired the words I would expect so much more from it
Also before I forget, please may I have your permission to link this discussion to my blog?
ReplyDeletehttp://teafueledmadness.blogspot.com/
I am interested in swapping further opinions about this subject but if you wish to keep it here I will understand.
I would like others to be able to access and follow this conversation but I will not do anything without your expressed permission
Cheers
Philip
Philip,
ReplyDeleteI'm replying to your comment with an entire post. I think it is that important. You can respond, if you wish, there. thanks!
The weird thing about the comments on Jean's blog is that they are telling her that she shouldn't tell her daughter such "abusive" things. For the life of me I can't find where she says she told her daughter any of these things. To the contrary, here is what she said,"my four year old daughter told me that the only person who would ever help her to be a good girl was Jesus Christ, because she could not do it on her own. I have never told her this. I would have thought this is too deep for a four year old to understand. That she was a sinner, she could not control her sinful nature. She wanted to be good but she could not, instead she did things that where wrong no matter how she tried to be good. Her theology is far deeper than that of many preachers today. I mean she gets it." And, I must say that this 4 year old's theology is far deeper than those professing "Christians" who attack her mother with charges of child abuse. God bless.
ReplyDeleteBy His Grace,
Jim
Jim, you're exactly right. And therein lies the truth about blogs... few read them, they just go in half-cocked and reply. ;)
ReplyDeletethanks for reading mine.